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Motormouth
Motor Racing Commentator



Australia
816 Posts
joined 22 Jun 04

 offline

Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  17:57:37  Show Profile  Visit Motormouth's Homepage Send Motormouth a Private Message
Hi everyone,

I am posting this topic on a situation about which I have become quite frustrated. I sent an email to Kelvin O'Reilly, but had no response. I then forwarded it to a couple of major motorsport mags, but they didn't seem interested either.

Below is the aforementioned email to O'Reilly and the "attached article" mentioned in the email. I look forward to hearing everyone's responses, and hopefully the powers-that-be will eventually take some notice

Email

Hi Kelvin,

The recent round of the V8 Supercar Championship in Adelaide highlighted a flaw with the current process of penalising drivers with a pit-lane drive-through penalty for certain racing offences. Specifically, Super Cheap Auto Racing's Paul Dumbrell was issued a PLP after he made contact with the rear of the Jack Daniel's Racing Commodore driven by Jack Perkins. However, Perkins in fact experienced an engine problem and Dumbrell could not avoid contact. Therefore, it is perfectly valid for spectators to conclude that the race stewards penalised Dumbrell without properly analysing the information available to them.

This is not the first time that such penalties have been issued. I wrote the attached article after the Oran Park round of the V8 Championship in 2005.

I have a suggestion to avoid similar situations occurring in the future, which I came up with back in '05 and is outlined in the attached article. My suggestion combats the fundamental problem with drive-through penalties - that is, once a drive-through is issued, it cannot be retracted.

If a driver is accused of a racing-offence, they are shown a black-flag. However, rather than being forced to take the penalty or else face exclusion from the race, as is the case under the current system, I propose that the accused driver could have a choice. They could either accept that they were guilty of the offence and serve the penalty immediately (effectively an "early guilty plea"). Or, if they believed they were innocent, they could continue racing without serving the penalty, and attend a stewards' hearing after the race. If they were found guilty in the stewards' hearing, the penalty issued would be harsher than a drive-through.

I believe my suggestion addresses a fundamental flaw with the current V8 Supercar judicial system and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this proposal.

Article (written after Oran Park, 2005)

All spectators who watched the V8 Supercar racing on the weekend would have been intrigued by some of the events that occurred in the first race. Specifically, Pirtek Racing driver Marcos Ambrose and Team Betta Electrical’s Craig Lowndes received drive-through penalties for allegedly speeding in pit lane. This allegation was emphatically denied by the members of both teams, claiming that their data proved that the car did not exceed the pit-lane speed limit at any time during the pit-stop procedure. This was certainly not the first time that the officials have come under fire for the application of a penalty. In 2003, Greg Murphy copped a drive-through after making unavoidable contact with Craig Lowndes, who was out of control at the time. These are just two examples of incidents where a penalty has been issued to a competitor in controversial circumstances.

Let’s take a more technical look at the rules regarding infringements. According to the AVESCO Operations Manual, a drive-through penalty is not susceptible to appeal and “will not generally be applied unless there is evidence of the offence that is largely beyond dispute.” In other words, a competitor must be found guilty of an offence “beyond reasonable doubt” to be liable for a drive-through (or stop-go) penalty. Otherwise, a post-race stewards hearing is supposed to be conducted to allow all parties concerned to express their points of view.

It is this concept of “largely beyond dispute” that is the subject of the widespread controversy. At Oran Park, there was substantial dispute from the accused teams, therefore the race stewards were clearly not complying with the above rules. A drive-through is a very heavy penalty, particularly at a circuit like Oran Park (with a very long pit-lane).The major issue is that a drive-through penalty is often irreversible, because if a driver’s race time is credited with the time lost for a drive-through, it will still not compensate for time lost behind slower cars, overtaking etc. It also has to be noted that if drivers fail to pit when displayed a black flag, they will generally be disqualified for failing to obey the directions of officials, regardless of whether or not they were found guilty of the incident they were originally black-flagged for.

At the beginning of 2005, the V8 Supercar judicial system was revised so that offenders were given the option of taking an “early guilty plea” in exchange for a lesser penalty than if they pleaded not guilty and were subsequently found guilty by the stewards. Why can’t the same system apply for drive-throughs? If competitors are black-flagged, they could have a choice. If they came in and served a drive-through (effectively an admittance of guilt), then that would be the end of the matter. On the other hand, they could continue racing and attend a judicial hearing after the race (if they believed they were innocent). If they were then found guilty, the penalty would be harsher than a drive-through (a point deduction or disqualification, perhaps?) This would give drivers the opportunity to protest a potentially unfair penalty, and would be a sure step to making the current system fairer.

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Edited by - Motormouth on 16 Apr 2007 18:35:21

WebberSkaife
Transporter Driver




Australia
32 Posts
joined 28 Mar 07

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  18:08:54  Show Profile  Visit WebberSkaife's Homepage Send WebberSkaife a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
good on ya. well written and a great idea. to bad no one wants to listen hey
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djr18fan
Team Manager



New Zealand
1781 Posts
joined 06 Jul 06

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  18:47:06  Show Profile Send djr18fan a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
sounds like quite a good idea to avoid penalising someone unfairly, but some negatives I see though are; the drivers standing on the podium possibly should not be there if they were under investigation. (This would cause a big problem at Bathurst. Can you imagine anyone admitting guilt and surrendering the lead in the last few laps there?) At multiple race weekends, pressure would be on for stewards decisions to be finalised quickly (probably not a big deal.) Then there is the problem of a guy continuing to race on and possibly stuffing up someone elsesrace for the lead, when he should be further back down the field. And does it encourage enquiries and appeals etc to drag on?

_Mford
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MunroGTS
BANNED



4147 Posts
joined 19 Feb 04

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  19:04:28  Show Profile  Visit MunroGTS's Homepage Send MunroGTS a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
I'd add a few swearwords.

The brilliant thing about drive through penalties, is you can rig races by handing them out. You can't contest them (well, not really) and it "evens things up" a bit.

V8superfarce.
*cough*.
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Oaksnaf
A Dangerous Obsession


1845 Posts
joined 05 Sep 05

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  19:15:26  Show Profile  Visit Oaksnaf's Homepage  Click to see Oaksnaf's MSN Messenger address Send Oaksnaf a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Do the public want to find out who won the race, 2 hours after the event?

Nope.
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Motormouth
Motor Racing Commentator



Australia
816 Posts
joined 22 Jun 04

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  19:39:17  Show Profile  Visit Motormouth's Homepage Send Motormouth a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
But is not finding out who won the race until 2 hours afterwards as bad as having someone on the podium who doesn't deserve to be there because the stewards stuffed up? Let's not forget that often there are post-race penalties anyway, so you might as way make the judicial system as fair as possible, which is where my idea comes in.

Edited by - Motormouth on 16 Apr 2007 19:42:28
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Oaksnaf
A Dangerous Obsession


1845 Posts
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  19:48:36  Show Profile  Visit Oaksnaf's Homepage  Click to see Oaksnaf's MSN Messenger address Send Oaksnaf a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
People make mistakes. Learn to live with it.

Unfortunatelty it is not ideal, but its the way it is. Cricket umpires make a wrong decision that swings a game, a football umpire fails to give the correct 50m penalty and kangaroos lose a game, a soccer ref gives a penalty for handball and a team wins the game when a draw should have been the result.

It happens everywhere around the world and we shouldn't over scrutinise things and make every single situation 'debatable' and 'appealable'. People have to accept that wrong decisions are going to be made, of course I hate it when it happens, but Id rather have a wrong decision made than have something that drags on for hours and hours on end in a court room. It is not the place for races to be decided.

There are opportunities for teams to debate the penalty down pit-lane and send the right information to race control in hope of having the decision reversed. Perhaps give them more time (15mins) to debate the situation (depending on how close the race is to an end), but dont give them a whole day and an appeal post race.
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Sonic
Moderator



Australia
17272 Posts
joined 14 Nov 06

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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  19:52:46  Show Profile Send Sonic a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
i've sent in similar suggestions too motormouth and you are right... when we do come up with ideas that don't gel with what they are doing they are deathly silent... not too sure really what we can do to get them to get off their butts and do something worthwhile short of tying them up and doing a hostile takeover...

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bigcol
Team Manager



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  20:03:40  Show Profile Send bigcol a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Drive through penalties.
Problem = Wollerman and Bond
Solution= sack both of them they do an absolutely crap job and have for years and give Tomas Mezera a go

ONLY LITTLE BOYZ WEAR BOWTIES
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FOX 42
Team Manager



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  20:26:57  Show Profile Send FOX 42 a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Sounds brillant to me.

Of course your going to have the knockers, but so far the positives far out weigh the negatives.

I would rather see a result decided after a race, than a Inocient man given a penalty.
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v8showdown
Pit Crew



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  20:40:15  Show Profile  Visit v8showdown's Homepage  Click to see v8showdown's MSN Messenger address Send v8showdown a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Great email its a shame to see that they dident care yes i think the PLP are problems and there should be some changes BUT most of all i think that a incident like PD and JP was judged wrong as JP even said the engine cut out.

NOT HAPPY

PS* Im not sticking up for either holden drivers but it was judged wrong

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skaifeyhrt
#1 A1 GP Team NZL fan



New Zealand
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  20:45:21  Show Profile Send skaifeyhrt a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
The sad thing is unless they think of that idea (which is brilliant by the way), they are just going to stick their fingers in their ears going "not listening". This idea puts the end decision back onto the drivers as it is their results on the line.



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bb
Team Manager



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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  21:27:07  Show Profile Send bb a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Has anyone had any kind of response from anyone in authority since the PI round? They used to reply even if just to say "no your wrong" and say why but now..................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz





































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Deano
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  22:04:24  Show Profile  Visit Deano's Homepage Send Deano a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Motormouth, try sending the email to PanelBeaters and ask Crompton to answer it.
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bigcol
Team Manager



Australia
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  23:40:50  Show Profile Send bigcol a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
Crompton is now only a VESA mouth piece.

Personally i wouldn't waste my time emailing any of them anymore.

The Ivory tower won't listen to us as they think we're a bunch of ****ing idiots

ONLY LITTLE BOYZ WEAR BOWTIES
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spoonster05
Team Manager



Monaco
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Posted - 16 Apr 2007 :  23:49:53  Show Profile Send spoonster05 a Private Message Copy this URL to Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by bigcol

Drive through penalties.
Problem = Wollerman and Bond
Solution= sack both of them they do an absolutely crap job and have for years and give Tomas Mezera a go



Totally agree bigcol, shame Tomas turned it down to spend more quality time with his family as at least he has half a clue how a modern V8 Supercar reacts and handles various situations


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